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Lineman: Finesse Moves > Power Moves All Day

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    Default Lineman: Finesse Moves > Power Moves All Day

    Anyone else notice this fact? Obviously when manually rushing a lineman (especially good when playing FAG D so you can get pressure,) that finesse moves are so much better than power moves? The bull rush is incredibly ineffective, even the best power rushers generally get pancaked, some more than others. I have found it's incredibly easy to get pressure simply by properly controlling the sticks right to left. Of course you need to have some skills, but once you get down the moves, they are deadly. Pretty much you can just see which way they are blocking, and spin around them, or shove them to one side very easily. Normally I am usering a linebacker, but with FAG D and 3rd and long, I've found I can get pressure with just one guy. I will contain one DE, both DT in coverage, and I am able to get pressure with the DE who have great finesse moves. Block shedding of course helps, but still, hands down the bull rush is pretty useless. It's a really high risk to reward ratio, sometimes you plow right through the guy, more often than not you get pancaked though. Finesse moves just work better in general, and you don't have anywhere near the worry of getting creamed.

    For those of you who play fag D, give this a shot. Use a team who has a great DE with good to decent block shedding, and great finesse moves. You can drop both DT into coverage, make sure you contain the DE you aren't rushing, so the QB doesn't scramble. With a little practice, you'll find it's INCREDIBLY easy to get pressure with the DE, you'll get it down pretty quick. Of course OLB line DeMarcus Ware are downright ridiculous too. I know everyone likes to user the field, but with FAG D, you might actually find that it is actually more effective to control a lineman and get manual pressure. I have been able to get to the QB almost instantly with just a manual one man rush at times, of course this doesn't happen every single time. With teams who have weak OT's, you can seriously beat them with ease, don't be afraid to substitute your best DE over their weakest OT, you'll find manual pressure to be effortless if their tackles suck.

    Anyone else find bull rushing completely useless when you want to get manual pressure? It just doesn't work very well, even with the best of them. Some DT like Ngata can get it done, but still manually doing it is a nightmare. The computer is way better at bull rushing.

    EDIT: Two things I forgot

    1) Look for the swim move #1 of all.
    2) REBLITZ your manual rusher so he takes a straight angle.
    Last edited by cyrax; 11-07-2011 at 11:40 PM.

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    I've had success with the bullrush with Haralson vs opponent's right tackles...as long as they're not elite blocking tackles.

    But you're right, the swim move is better...especially against the RT, and get to the outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshBlackstone View Post
    I've had success with the bullrush with Haralson vs opponent's right tackles...as long as they're not elite blocking tackles.

    But you're right, the swim move is better...especially against the RT, and get to the outside.
    Well I've had success with the bull rush too, the problem is that many times even the best of "bull rushers" get pancaked, even when facing a significantly weaker lineman. I think for the few times it does work, it's not worth it, because there are sure to be just as many, if not more times that you get absolutely creamed. Finesse moves are just such a safe bet, and you can pretty much count on the fact you won't be taken out of the play. When playing FAG D and you're depending on your user skills alone to get pressure, finesse moves are such a safe bet, and they are ridiculously good. If you were to be playing FAG D, bull rush, and get knocked over, your rush is pretty much done. I've been constantly moving my best DE over their RT, and I can honestly get pressure almost instantly. So many times I literally bump into them, go right around them, and am after the QB almost instantly. The lineman in this game for some reason leave you in 1 on 1 battles, even when you're playing FAG D and only manually rushing one guy, it's weird as hell. After that you just avoid running into any more lineman, and the QB is yours for the taking pretty much. The RT is almost always weaker as you already pointed out, because the LT needs to be better, since he protects the QB's blind side in real life. Moving over a guy like Julius Peppers to me mismatched on the RT is just ridiculous, many times you can literally get by them almost instantly, getting a quick sack with just one man pressure. Since most QBs are right handed, you're making them roll out to their wide side, so they won't be able to throw worth a shit anyway. Your contain often will get a sack as well, they instantly will want to take off that direction.
    Last edited by cyrax; 11-08-2011 at 01:28 AM.

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    This is the main reason that Sergio Kindle is a 10x better pass rusher in this game than Jarret Johnson, despite Johnson having 91 PMV and Kindle having 92 FMV, Kindle always gets better pressure than Johnson.

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    I will tell you one guy I can bull rush up the middle with like clockwork. Justin Smith. I line him up at DT and get really great pressure bull rushing with him. I probably only get tossed aside 1 in 5 tries. The other 4, I get in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshBlackstone View Post
    I will tell you one guy I can bull rush up the middle with like clockwork. Justin Smith. I line him up at DT and get really great pressure bull rushing with him. I probably only get tossed aside 1 in 5 tries. The other 4, I get in.
    This sounds like julius peppers for me. I actually go into depth an search for the weakest OL player and peppers gets in everytime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janfuso View Post
    This sounds like julius peppers for me. I actually go into depth an search for the weakest OL player and peppers gets in everytime.
    LOL i do the exact same thing when I use Dunlap from the Bengals.... Its WAY easier to beat that RT instead of that LT.... Look for the weakest link & go to WORK on him haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnA ExclusiVe View Post
    This is the main reason that Sergio Kindle is a 10x better pass rusher in this game than Jarret Johnson, despite Johnson having 91 PMV and Kindle having 92 FMV, Kindle always gets better pressure than Johnson.
    Thanks for your input, I knew I was onto something here. Obviously you guys already knew this, as you have confirmed what I thought, I guess I just never noticed. Most people feel that usering a lineman is useless, and it usually is in most situations, but I honestly believe in FAG D, usering a lineman is MORE BENEFICIAL by far in that case. I mean the field is blanketed in coverage, they will struggle to get good reads, when you add to that the fact that you can get amazing pressure with 1 guy, it's downright amazing on 3rd and longs. The computer will take all day long to get there, letting them chill in the pocket forever, good lineman usering can really take away their time in the pocket. It really changed my view of things, I've gotten so many picks now from using FAG D + usering a lineman. I mean the combination of having a field blanketed in coverage, and still getting amazing pressure is just unbeatable. I honestly went and played with the Ravens (I never do) just to see what you were talking about, and it's so true. I tried to user Johnson and get pressure, and I couldn't for shit. Yet with Kindle, I could quite easily, thanks for pointing that out. I think Julius Peppers might be the single best lineman to user, I could be wrong, but I have almost been able to replicate a nano with one man, it's crazy. It's not instant like a nano, but literally I have been at the QB after a second or two, I literally sometimes can make contact, and immediately break free. I get alot of sacks because when people see FAG D, they aren't worried about getting sacked at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by AshBlackstone View Post
    I will tell you one guy I can bull rush up the middle with like clockwork. Justin Smith. I line him up at DT and get really great pressure bull rushing with him. I probably only get tossed aside 1 in 5 tries. The other 4, I get in.
    I'm a huge 49er player (long before they got to be very good) so I have to go try this. My dad's favorite team is the Niners, he grew up in California, and I lived there for a while, so I love playing with them. Anyway, I really would like to see this, because I don't have constant success bull rushing with ANYONE. I mean there are people like Ngata who I can be sorta consistent with, but I still get creamed way too much for the fact I am using an elite player, and especially once who has a good bull rush. With finesse moves it's a field day getting past right tackles, I don't even have to try.

    Now I have a question for you here, I know you said you line him up at DT, but are have you ever tried beating one of the really good left tackles? Now I know it's pointless to purposely match up against the strongest lineman, but I am asking for the sake of comparing the two. With Julius Peppers I was able to beat Joe Thomas and Jake Long pretty consistently, although they are a bit tougher due to how good they are. Just for comparisons sake, what is your success rate bull rushing Justin Smith against good offensive tackles?

    EDIT: HOLY SHIT! I labbed with this guy, this is the result :O. I didn't realize any bull rusher could be so good. I know I had 4 guys rushing it's because I was too lazy to make it into Fag D in practice mode, this was literally my first try. The point is to show what happens 1 on 1, and wow this guy is a beast. Compare how fast I got through with usering him to the other lineman rushing by the CPU, BIG DIFFERENCE. This goes to show the effectiveness of manually rushing lineman in Fag D, more people need to do this! I think I am going to start bull rushing with him, he is one of the exceptions, PURE MONSTER. Thank you Ash!

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc7vxI-0kgc[/ame]

    Quote Originally Posted by Janfuso View Post
    This sounds like julius peppers for me. I actually go into depth an search for the weakest OL player and peppers gets in everytime.
    Yes, Julius Peppers is a monster. So far he has been the best hands down, but I am nowhere close to having tried everyone. I just recently started using the idea of FAG D and doing a manual 1 man rush. I got the idea from a friend whom is extremely good, when I saw him manually rushing Peppers and constantly being able to get through, despite a one man rush. It was unbelievable, so I gave it a shot, and it really does work. I know the Colts suck, but I imagine you could do some nasty things having both Mathis and Freeney, especially if they didn't have exceptional tackles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogoodmove View Post
    LOL i do the exact same thing when I use Dunlap from the Bengals.... Its WAY easier to beat that RT instead of that LT.... Look for the weakest link & go to WORK on him haha
    Yes, left tackles tend to be way better because of the fact in the NFL they protect the blind side. It's weird how the thought of purposely creating mismatches never really occurred to me, ha. I swear I have been playing so much more FAG D since mastering the swim move, it really changed my perspective. Honestly I have had many times where within a couple seconds I had pressure already, and this is with 9 guys in coverage... I just contain the other DE to remove any thought they might have of scrambling. I imagine this concept will become alot more used in the higher ranks if it already isn't, I mean you really get the best of both worlds. Having perfect coverage and still great pressure, not much more you could ask for.
    Last edited by cyrax; 11-08-2011 at 07:01 AM.

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    If Finesse moves are so much better than Power Moves, than what is the importance of Block Shedding? Jared Allen has mid 80's block shedding, 99 Power Move, and decent strength. Why is Peppers better? I guess I don't understand why Finesse moves are so much better. I guess what I'm saying is why have block shedding?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genno View Post
    If Finesse moves are so much better than Power Moves, than what is the importance of Block Shedding? Jared Allen has mid 80's block shedding, 99 Power Move, and decent strength. Why is Peppers better? I guess I don't understand why Finesse moves are so much better. I guess what I'm saying is why have block shedding?
    As weird as this is going to sound Block Shedding only has an effect on run blocking. The power and finesse moves are only used for pass rushing or at least that was my understanding of it.

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